Discussion:
Slackware's future
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James H. Markowitz
2018-07-04 00:20:20 UTC
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It has been a long time since the most recent release of
Slackware was announced. In the meantime, numerous packages have become
obsolete. Even in Slackbuilds, many packages can't be updated because
they depend on new versions of software that is indeed available in the
latest release, 14.2, but in rather old versions, sometimes not even
supported any longer.

14.2 is currently over two years old - an eternity in the Linux
world. While I am all for the Slackware philosophy of making sure that
the system is stable, rather than having the latest and greatest (and I
love the fact that Slackware keeps shunning systemd) the truth is, that
philosophy may result in an obsolete system. That does not mean
"useless", of course, but it does mean "less useful".

The fact is that 14.2 is seriously beginning to show its age,
even with the pathes regularly released for it. There is activity in the
current branch all right but, it does not seem to be the case that a new
release is imminent - meaning anything less than several months, at best.

I never thought it would come to this but, if no new Slackware
release is announced within the next couple of months, I will seriously
start looking into other distributions, or perhaps one of the BSDs.
James Taylor
2018-07-04 00:28:52 UTC
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Post by James H. Markowitz
It has been a long time since the most recent release of
Slackware was announced. In the meantime, numerous packages have become
obsolete. Even in Slackbuilds, many packages can't be updated because
they depend on new versions of software that is indeed available in the
latest release, 14.2, but in rather old versions, sometimes not even
supported any longer.
14.2 is currently over two years old - an eternity in the Linux
world. While I am all for the Slackware philosophy of making sure that
the system is stable, rather than having the latest and greatest (and I
love the fact that Slackware keeps shunning systemd) the truth is, that
philosophy may result in an obsolete system. That does not mean
"useless", of course, but it does mean "less useful".
The fact is that 14.2 is seriously beginning to show its age,
even with the pathes regularly released for it. There is activity in the
current branch all right but, it does not seem to be the case that a new
release is imminent - meaning anything less than several months, at best.
I never thought it would come to this but, if no new Slackware
release is announced within the next couple of months, I will seriously
start looking into other distributions, or perhaps one of the BSDs.
Well, that is certainly a personal decision and I don't think anyone
holds a decision like that against you. Have you considered
transitioning to "-current"?

Maybe it would help to get a little more context about this first,
though. Is there any package in particular that you're wishing was
up-to-date and is not? Is it a list of packages? What needs to be done
so that the software can meet your needs?

Sorry for the interrogation. I can only speak to my own needs, which
14.2 meets, and your case is undoubtedly different. Every bit of
information helps.
Martha Adams
2018-07-04 03:07:51 UTC
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Post by James H. Markowitz
It has been a long time since the most recent release of
Slackware was announced. In the meantime, numerous packages have become
obsolete. Even in Slackbuilds, many packages can't be updated because
they depend on new versions of software that is indeed available in the
latest release, 14.2, but in rather old versions, sometimes not even
supported any longer.
14.2 is currently over two years old - an eternity in the Linux
world. While I am all for the Slackware philosophy of making sure that
the system is stable, rather than having the latest and greatest (and I
love the fact that Slackware keeps shunning systemd) the truth is, that
philosophy may result in an obsolete system. That does not mean
"useless", of course, but it does mean "less useful".
---snip ---
I think this is re Slackware's future, and I'm looking intensely at
that. Maybe Slackware is coming to the end of its story; maybe we
don't see new and news because where to go from here is a puzzlement.
Or something else; but if we're at a critical point, well, that's
how it looks to me. I'd like to go on being a Slacker but if that's
not to be, from here I see two options, and a critical (to me) detail.

The detail is, I like twm as my screen manager. I know there are
others out there, which all look too Microsofty to me. Basic twm is
for me, Just Right, so if some other os can't take twm, I'm not
interested.

Given that, then, I think one option for me is move on to Arch Linux.
And the other is, go to one of the BSDs, most likely OpenBSD. I have
not yet started one of these in a local machine, but I'm thinking
about it and a little birdy whispers in my ear, Martha, do this before
you're sorry you didn't.

I think a core issue here is *complexification*. It seems, given an
os, it grows. Never mind what it's good for. But my point about
complexification, other than that it hurts the work and I avoid it
like poison as far as possible (I'm an emacs/TeX person) out there
in the real world it's a serious topic and many people want it.

So I wonder if the core problem at the Slackware core offices is,
they're too closed? Have used up all the possibilities in talking
to each other, resulting in loss of energy? ??

Titeotwawki -- Martha Adams [Tues 2018 Jly 03]
James Taylor
2018-07-04 04:11:10 UTC
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Post by Martha Adams
I think this is re Slackware's future, and I'm looking intensely at
that. Maybe Slackware is coming to the end of its story; maybe we
don't see new and news because where to go from here is a puzzlement.
Or something else; but if we're at a critical point, well, that's
how it looks to me. I'd like to go on being a Slacker but if that's
not to be, from here I see two options, and a critical (to me) detail.
So I wonder if the core problem at the Slackware core offices is,
they're too closed? Have used up all the possibilities in talking
to each other, resulting in loss of energy? ??
Titeotwawki -- Martha Adams [Tues 2018 Jly 03]
I think that might be sounding the alarm far too early, really. I can
think of quite a few interested parties that would happily take over if
anything should happen to Slackware that would threaten its continued
production and use. Look what happened with the Salix and Porteus
teams.

But I do think that you have both a point and an interesting idea to
explore further. Slackware is indeed a lot more centralized than several
other distros, but I see that as a virtue in maintaining its
philosophy. Is there a downside? I'm sure that there is, but
I would sooner endure the downsides than lose what I like about
Slackware.

Let's say this for what it is - if Slackware ever reaches an end, there
is plenty of material there for continuation. None of the ideas will be
lost, all the old scripts and configuration files will still be there,
and no doubt a very frustrated userbase will power on one way or
another. The only question will be *how* they go about it.

But more to the point of the original message, if something is
bothersome in Slackware, you're welcome to ask about it,
respectfully. Don't assume that it's human negligence that is creating
the issue. Often there are demands which a small group simply cannot
meet right away, and it is not worth pointing blame for something like that.
Mike Spencer
2018-07-04 07:29:19 UTC
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Post by Martha Adams
Post by James H. Markowitz
It has been a long time since the most recent release of
Slackware was announced. In the meantime, numerous packages have become
obsolete. Even in Slackbuilds, many packages can't be updated because
they depend on new versions of software that is indeed available in the
latest release, 14.2, but in rather old versions, sometimes not even
supported any longer.
14.2 is currently over two years old - an eternity in the Linux
world. While I am all for the Slackware philosophy of making sure that
the system is stable, rather than having the latest and greatest (and I
love the fact that Slackware keeps shunning systemd) the truth is, that
philosophy may result in an obsolete system. That does not mean
"useless", of course, but it does mean "less useful".
---snip ---
I'm still using Slack 11.0 on my main box. Only complaints are
failure to support a browser new enough to do latest crypto and a USB
flaw for which there's a workaround.
Post by Martha Adams
I think this is re Slackware's future, and I'm looking intensely at
that. Maybe Slackware is coming to the end of its story; maybe we
don't see new and news because where to go from here is a puzzlement.
Or something else; but if we're at a critical point, well, that's
how it looks to me. I'd like to go on being a Slacker but if that's
not to be, from here I see two options, and a critical (to me) detail.
The detail is, I like twm as my screen manager. I know there are
others out there, which all look too Microsofty to me. Basic twm is
for me, Just Right, so if some other os can't take twm, I'm not
interested.
Same here.

I'm in the process of upgrading from 14.1 to 14.2 on my laptop.
Solely to get the crypto support for a browser. Really annoying
because it's much more bothersome (or impossible) to tweak new
browsers to eliminate bloat, crap, tracking etc. in the way I'm used
to. In any case, nothing else shows any need for upgrading.

twm doesn't have a task bar so network manager fails but wicd-curses
seems to be just fine.
Post by Martha Adams
Given that, then, I think one option for me is move on to Arch Linux.
And the other is, go to one of the BSDs, most likely OpenBSD. I have
not yet started one of these in a local machine, but I'm thinking
about it and a little birdy whispers in my ear, Martha, do this before
you're sorry you didn't.
Well, I'm not going anywhere until I absolutely can't get along with
Slackware. Don't foresee that any time soon.
Post by Martha Adams
I think a core issue here is *complexification*. It seems, given an
os, it grows. Never mind what it's good for. But my point about
complexification, other than that it hurts the work and I avoid it
like poison as far as possible (I'm an emacs/TeX person) out there
in the real world it's a serious topic and many people want it.
Not me. The more complexity, the more has to be buried under more and
more layers of software to manage the stuff that's there to manage the
stuff that....etc. My choice of Slackware is because of the notion
that I can understand it if it doesn't "just work". Only it usually
just works.
Post by Martha Adams
So I wonder if the core problem at the Slackware core offices is,
they're too closed? Have used up all the possibilities in talking
to each other, resulting in loss of energy? ??
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Dan C
2018-07-05 02:28:03 UTC
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Post by Mike Spencer
I'm still using Slack 11.0 on my main box.
Why?
--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
"Bother!" said Pooh, as the woodpecker approached his hot-air balloon.
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Thanks, Obama: Loading Image...
notbob
2018-07-05 14:37:22 UTC
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Post by Mike Spencer
I'm still using Slack 11.0 on my main box.
Why?
Prolly cuz his computer is so old (read slow) it gags on anything newer.

BTDT
nb
Mike Spencer
2018-07-05 23:36:11 UTC
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Post by notbob
Post by Mike Spencer
I'm still using Slack 11.0 on my main box.
Why?
Prolly cuz his computer is so old (read slow) it gags on anything newer.
BTDT
Not the case. It's old -- IBM P4 -- but Slack 12 ran fine. I
downgraded to 11.0, bought the DVD from Patrick.

It's because the libraries -- glibc? -- in 12.0 and after don't
support Netscape Navigator 4.76. Next question?

Why do I want NN 4.76? It allows me easily to turn off js and images,
doesn't support autoloading of files in <LINK... tags, doesn't support
CSS and several other things that cause me annoyance. Unfortunately,
Slack 11 won't, AFAICT, run FF newer than 2.x so all the sites that
are opting for the very latest crypto protocol are going dark for me.

Yes, I have a laptop with Slack 14.2 and one with 14.1. When I want
one of those sites badly enough to wait, on my dialup connection, for
all those megabyte images that are rendered down to 20%, all the js,
bloat, CSS, tracking files/images etc. to trickle through the pipe, I
can fire up one of them, masquerade it through the desktop or carry it
out to where there's broadband and wifi. Shpx, xkcd demands that one
use the latest crypto-enabled browser, presumably to protect me
against attacks that NN 4.76 probably is immune to. To look at a
cartoon. Yes, crypto is cool but sites should negotiate what protocol
the user requests and serve accordingly, not demand the user
accommodate whatever the latest server package defaults to.

I pretty well trust the crypto itself but not the implementation
superstructure of stuff compiled into browsers at big compnaies, the
cert companies and all. Recent flap over encrypted email failure was
that kind of superstructure failure, not the crypto. So all this
"HTTPS everywhere" doesn't make me feel safer, it just pisses me off.

Just stumbled over another end-run-the-crypto attack as I write:

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/07/rash-of-fortnite-cheaters-infected-by-malware-that-breaks-https-encryption/

I suspect you're sorry you asked. :-)
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

My electric toaster is 105 years old and works great.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Dan C
2018-07-06 01:26:23 UTC
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Post by Mike Spencer
Post by notbob
Post by Mike Spencer
I'm still using Slack 11.0 on my main box.
Why?
Prolly cuz his computer is so old (read slow) it gags on anything newer.
BTDT
Not the case. It's old -- IBM P4 -- but Slack 12 ran fine. I
downgraded to 11.0, bought the DVD from Patrick.
It's because the libraries -- glibc? -- in 12.0 and after don't support
Netscape Navigator 4.76. Next question?
Why do I want NN 4.76? It allows me easily to turn off js and images,
doesn't support autoloading of files in <LINK... tags, doesn't support
CSS and several other things that cause me annoyance. Unfortunately,
Slack 11 won't, AFAICT, run FF newer than 2.x so all the sites that are
opting for the very latest crypto protocol are going dark for me.
Yes, I have a laptop with Slack 14.2 and one with 14.1. When I want one
of those sites badly enough to wait, on my dialup connection, for all
those megabyte images that are rendered down to 20%, all the js,
bloat, CSS, tracking files/images etc. to trickle through the pipe, I
can fire up one of them, masquerade it through the desktop or carry it
out to where there's broadband and wifi. Shpx, xkcd demands that one
use the latest crypto-enabled browser, presumably to protect me against
attacks that NN 4.76 probably is immune to. To look at a cartoon. Yes,
crypto is cool but sites should negotiate what protocol the user
requests and serve accordingly, not demand the user accommodate whatever
the latest server package defaults to.
I pretty well trust the crypto itself but not the implementation
superstructure of stuff compiled into browsers at big compnaies, the
cert companies and all. Recent flap over encrypted email failure was
that kind of superstructure failure, not the crypto. So all this "HTTPS
everywhere" doesn't make me feel safer, it just pisses me off.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/07/rash-of-fortnite-
cheaters-infected-by-malware-that-breaks-https-encryption/
Post by Mike Spencer
I suspect you're sorry you asked. :-)
Well, I'm the one who asked, and no, not sorry. :)

My next question is.... what's the need to turn all that stuff off? Is it
a speed thing? Pages have gotten cumbersome and slower than before, is
that it? I can (sort of) see that, but with decent (not the best)
hardware, and a good internet connection, things aren't so bad. Would
seem to be better than missing content on major/most sites, at least to me.

Am I correct here, or is there some other reason to use the old stuff?
--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
"Bother!" said Pooh, as he declared his horse a Senator.
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Thanks, Obama: http://brandybuck.site40.net/pics/politica/thanks.jpg
Rich
2018-07-06 03:26:20 UTC
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Post by Dan C
Post by Mike Spencer
...
Yes, I have a laptop with Slack 14.2 and one with 14.1. When I want one
of those sites badly enough to wait, on my *dialup connection*,
..
I suspect you're sorry you asked. :-)
Well, I'm the one who asked, and no, not sorry. :)
My next question is.... what's the need to turn all that stuff off?
Is it a speed thing?
See the highlighted two words above in the quote from Mike's text.
Those of no longer on "dialup" have long since forgotten just how slow
it was.
Post by Dan C
hardware, and a *good internet connection*, things aren't so bad.
Would
Dialup, in todays world, will hardly qualify as a "good internet
connection".
Martha Adams
2018-07-06 03:44:47 UTC
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Post by Mike Spencer
Post by Mike Spencer
Post by notbob
Post by Mike Spencer
I'm still using Slack 11.0 on my main box.
Why?
Prolly cuz his computer is so old (read slow) it gags on anything newer.
BTDT
Not the case. It's old -- IBM P4 -- but Slack 12 ran fine. I
downgraded to 11.0, bought the DVD from Patrick.
It's because the libraries -- glibc? -- in 12.0 and after don't support
Netscape Navigator 4.76. Next question?
Why do I want NN 4.76? It allows me easily to turn off js and images,
doesn't support autoloading of files in <LINK... tags, doesn't support
CSS and several other things that cause me annoyance. Unfortunately,
Slack 11 won't, AFAICT, run FF newer than 2.x so all the sites that are
opting for the very latest crypto protocol are going dark for me.
Yes, I have a laptop with Slack 14.2 and one with 14.1. When I want one
of those sites badly enough to wait, on my dialup connection, for all
those megabyte images that are rendered down to 20%, all the js,
bloat, CSS, tracking files/images etc. to trickle through the pipe, I
can fire up one of them, masquerade it through the desktop or carry it
out to where there's broadband and wifi. Shpx, xkcd demands that one
use the latest crypto-enabled browser, presumably to protect me against
attacks that NN 4.76 probably is immune to. To look at a cartoon. Yes,
crypto is cool but sites should negotiate what protocol the user
requests and serve accordingly, not demand the user accommodate whatever
the latest server package defaults to.
I pretty well trust the crypto itself but not the implementation
superstructure of stuff compiled into browsers at big compnaies, the
cert companies and all. Recent flap over encrypted email failure was
that kind of superstructure failure, not the crypto. So all this "HTTPS
everywhere" doesn't make me feel safer, it just pisses me off.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/07/rash-of-fortnite-
cheaters-infected-by-malware-that-breaks-https-encryption/
Post by Mike Spencer
I suspect you're sorry you asked. :-)
Well, I'm the one who asked, and no, not sorry. :)
My next question is.... what's the need to turn all that stuff off? Is it
a speed thing? Pages have gotten cumbersome and slower than before, is
that it? I can (sort of) see that, but with decent (not the best)
hardware, and a good internet connection, things aren't so bad. Would
seem to be better than missing content on major/most sites, at least to me.
Am I correct here, or is there some other reason to use the old stuff?
Actually, *yes*. I'm doing fine with emacs and TeX; and I update my
system because it seems a good idea, not a pressing need. Let's not
confuse the age of the machine with the age of what's in it. The same
plain text that would have served Plato fine, works now. If you have
some ideas how to update the text in Patrick OBrian, Jack Vance, or
JRR Tolkein, I'd be interested to see a discussion of why those works
are thus improved. Old text frequently is good text, and older
hardware has certain advantages over newer, elaborated and complexified
hardware. So I believe, there are lots of good reasons to use "the
old stuff" and I think their effect approaches compelling.

Titeotwawki -- Martha Adams [Thr 2018 Jly 05]
Mike Spencer
2018-07-06 07:07:19 UTC
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[big snip]
Post by Mike Spencer
Why do I want NN 4.76? It allows me easily to turn off js and images,
doesn't support autoloading of files in <LINK... tags, doesn't support
CSS and several other things that cause me annoyance.
[snip]
I suspect you're sorry you asked. :-)
Well, I'm the one who asked, and no, not sorry. :)
Oh, good.
My next question is.... what's the need to turn all that stuff off? Is it
a speed thing?
Speed is the main factor. Say a news or opinion site [1] or opinion
site will have 20 or items headlined. Each item is accompanied by a
stock photo. Do I need to see yet another photo of the Bdelygma in
Chief? Of crowds and spokespersons? Just to look at a list of
news items?

And there's the ads. I normally never see ads, well, except for the
labeled text items returned by a Google search. And some of those ads
refresh every few seconds with more megabytes of image. So yes, speed
over dialup is the big one.

Running neck and neck is ads. When I take the laptop out to the
modern world and look at the web, I'm always a little shocked at all
the ad-crap cluttering the screen. Of course, there it d/l's real
quick but it's still annoying and distracting.

And then there's tracking. Not that there's much of anything anyone
(short, perhaps, of personally targeting me out of spite) could learn
by tracking my web usage that would benefit them or hurt me. So some
one knows I've Googled "paroxysmal presbysternismus". They're not
going to screw up my Canadian medical coverage with that knowledge or
sell me nose drops. It just irritates me.
Pages have gotten cumbersome and slower than before, is
that it?
And you have to *look* at it. FF has View->Page Style->No Style that
makes it a little less aggressive but only a little. And on dialup,
the difference between the base page and all the LINK files, images
and IFRAMES is from 100% up to an order of magnitude slower.
I can (sort of) see that, but with decent (not the best) hardware,
and a good internet connection, things aren't so bad. Would seem to
be better than missing content on major/most sites, at least to me.
Yeah, Real Soon Now I'm going to have to do something about speed,
probably one of those widgets (I forget the tech terminology) that does
data over a cell connection. I could get rural wireless that's pretty
fast but the I'd have techs on the roof dicking with the antenna or
running overhead cables from the higher studio roof. And upgrade to
Slack 14.2. I've already spent a few hours looking up what relevant
entries in About:config mean and disabled a lot of stuff on the 14.2
laptop but it only partially does the job.

Have yet to fetch add-ons/plug-ins that disable ads, js etc. because
NN 4.76 does it for me.
Am I correct here, or is there some other reason to use the old stuff?
I would read several other sites with broadband and a new
system/browser -- NYT, WaPo, xkcd. There are a few videos -- about
blacksmithing, old movies, this & that -- on U-Tube I'd fetch. And if
I really want something I *can* drive to the village store or 12
mi. into town and do it at the library. There's some good stuff on TV
but I've gotten along without it for, what?...40 years. The downside
of TV justifies the decision to get along without it. I can get along
without the NYT.

Social media? Face book? Nah. Now a friend was getting the
run-around from a major auto mfgr about major warrantee. His wife
located the responsible person on Facebook and posted the details on
his personal page (wall?). Corporate compliance was hastily
forthcoming. So I see possibilities -- never say never -- but I don't
need it now, don't want what they have to offer, so I don't need the
computational gumpties to do megabytes of js and all that's involved.

[1] I forget which are the most egregious offender because I normally
don't see the images.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

My electric toaster is 105 years oldand works fine.
notbob
2018-07-11 16:08:09 UTC
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Post by Dan C
Pages have gotten cumbersome and slower than before, is
that it?
Mostly!

My brother hadda buy me a new i3 box cuz my old P4 box was jes too slow.
Now, I'm using W10 and waiting fer a new Slackware 15. I still use my
old P4 with 14.1 fer checking my primary financial institution stuff,
but it's sooooo slow! ;)

nb
Richard Kettlewell
2018-07-06 06:37:33 UTC
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Post by Mike Spencer
Why do I want NN 4.76? It allows me easily to turn off js and images,
doesn't support autoloading of files in <LINK... tags, doesn't support
CSS and several other things that cause me annoyance. Unfortunately,
Slack 11 won't, AFAICT, run FF newer than 2.x so all the sites that
are opting for the very latest crypto protocol are going dark for me.
Yes, I have a laptop with Slack 14.2 and one with 14.1. When I want
one of those sites badly enough to wait, on my dialup connection, for
all those megabyte images that are rendered down to 20%, all the js,
bloat, CSS, tracking files/images etc. to trickle through the pipe, I
can fire up one of them, masquerade it through the desktop or carry it
out to where there's broadband and wifi. Shpx, xkcd demands that one
use the latest crypto-enabled browser, presumably to protect me
against attacks that NN 4.76 probably is immune to. To look at a
cartoon. Yes, crypto is cool but sites should negotiate what protocol
the user requests and serve accordingly, not demand the user
accommodate whatever the latest server package defaults to.
I pretty well trust the crypto itself but not the implementation
superstructure of stuff compiled into browsers at big compnaies, the
cert companies and all.
Does 4.76 have anything more recent than SSLv3? If not you then should
not trust the crypto there; it is thoroughly broken.
Post by Mike Spencer
Recent flap over encrypted email failure was that kind of
superstructure failure, not the crypto. So all this "HTTPS
everywhere" doesn't make me feel safer, it just pisses me off.
Assuming you mean ‘efail’, the crypto is broken, not just the
surrounding applications. The paper goes into detail but even the web
page makes this clear.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
Eli the Bearded
2018-07-06 07:01:33 UTC
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Post by Mike Spencer
Why do I want NN 4.76? It allows me easily to turn off js and images,
doesn't support autoloading of files in <LINK... tags, doesn't support
CSS and several other things that cause me annoyance. Unfortunately,
Slack 11 won't, AFAICT, run FF newer than 2.x so all the sites that
are opting for the very latest crypto protocol are going dark for me.
Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard ("PCI Compliance") requires
sites stop accepting older, now easily broken, SSL / TLS versions.
Anything older than TLS 1.2 should be refused as of July 2018 by any
company that deals with credit cards, or any company forced into PCI
compliance by dint of other companies they interact with.

You might want to look into running some sort of HTTPS-to-HTTP endpoint
proxy in front of your browser instead. Technically it is quite feasible, if a
tad complicated, but I can't think of one that exists. You might be able
to get a MITM proxy (eg mitmproxy) to do it for you, or at least to talk
to the sites in secure TLS and your browser in insecure SSL.

Elijah
------
spent some time recently fixing ancient RHEL systems for this TLS thing
Dario Niedermann
2018-07-15 16:00:02 UTC
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Post by Eli the Bearded
You might want to look into running some sort of HTTPS-to-HTTP endpoint
proxy in front of your browser instead. Technically it is quite
feasible, if a tad complicated, but I can't think of one that exists.
I use a free program called Tinyproxy to access HTTPS pages from my
(emulated) VAX. Tinyproxy running on the same host where the emulator
runs, translating HTTPS to HTTP. Not that it works reliably 100% of the
time, but it mostly does.

FWIW, I think forcing HTTPS for non-critical content is simply absurd.
It just cuts out the old machines from the web, whereas the Internet
as an infrastructure should always be as inclusive as possible.
--
Dario Niedermann. Also on the Internet at:

gopher://darioniedermann.it/ <> https://www.darioniedermann.it/
Mike Spencer
2018-07-16 05:54:36 UTC
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Post by Dario Niedermann
Post by Eli the Bearded
You might want to look into running some sort of HTTPS-to-HTTP
endpoint proxy in front of your browser instead. Technically it is
quite feasible, if a tad complicated, but I can't think of one that
exists.
I use a free program called Tinyproxy to access HTTPS pages from my
(emulated) VAX. Tinyproxy running on the same host where the emulator
runs, translating HTTPS to HTTP. Not that it works reliably 100% of the
time, but it mostly does.
Tnx. I'll have a look. Can't get to the github sites with this box
because the old browser doesn't support the latest crypro protocol and
the old system doesn't support the new browsers.
Post by Dario Niedermann
FWIW, I think forcing HTTPS for non-critical content is simply absurd.
Agree. See above.
Post by Dario Niedermann
It just cuts out the old machines from the web, whereas the Internet
as an infrastructure should always be as inclusive as possible.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Eli the Bearded
2018-07-18 00:34:05 UTC
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Post by Mike Spencer
Post by Dario Niedermann
FWIW, I think forcing HTTPS for non-critical content is simply absurd.
Agree. See above.
Your sense of "absurd" might change if you had web pages edited by
intermediaries. Someone I know was just complaining that Cablevision was
inserting banners into their (the user's) webpages asking to them to
upgrade their cable modem. Big site owners don't need to get too many
support questions asking about that before they decide http is not a
good idea any more.

(And the Cablevision example is a benign one. There are a lot of
malicious examples, including malware that runs on home routers[*].)

Elijah
------
[*] getting lot of sketchy ads and pushy popups is a sign of this
Ivan Shmakov
2018-07-16 07:35:25 UTC
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Post by Dario Niedermann
Post by Eli the Bearded
You might want to look into running some sort of HTTPS-to-HTTP
endpoint proxy in front of your browser instead. Technically it is
quite feasible, if a tad complicated, but I can't think of one that
exists.
You might be able to get a MITM proxy (eg mitmproxy) to do it for
you, or at least to talk to the sites in secure TLS and your browser
in insecure SSL.
From the description, it seems that Mitmproxy is exactly such an
HTTPS-to-HTTP endpoint, no? Then, there's also Sslstrip.

Personally, I don't use either because I'm somewhat at odds with
Python. (I'm loosely thinking of teaching Polipo this trick.)
Post by Dario Niedermann
I use a free program called Tinyproxy to access HTTPS pages from my
(emulated) VAX. Tinyproxy running on the same host where the
emulator runs, translating HTTPS to HTTP. Not that it works reliably
100% of the time, but it mostly does.
That sounds interesting, thanks.
Post by Dario Niedermann
FWIW, I think forcing HTTPS for non-critical content is simply
absurd. It just cuts out the old machines from the web, whereas the
Internet as an infrastructure should always be as inclusive as
possible.
Seconded.

I used to run Squid so that I can save copies of interesting
pages with Wget straight from the cache (IOW, without downloading
them a second time), and not it's useless.

Alternatively, an HTTP proxy can be used to modify Web pages on
the fly (like removing ads, or excessive or otherwise unwanted .js)
and with HTTPS, and moreover HSTS, that gets rather tricky.
--
FSF associate member #7257 http://am-1.org/~ivan/
Mike Spencer
2018-07-17 19:52:28 UTC
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Post by Ivan Shmakov
Alternatively, an HTTP proxy can be used to modify Web pages on
the fly (like removing ads, or excessive or otherwise unwanted .js)
and with HTTPS, and moreover HSTS, that gets rather tricky.
That's my goal. An already bloated page -- say, 450K to deliver 45K
od readable text -- can double or quadrupal in size when all of the
<LINKed, img, ad and other files are called in. On a slow connection,
much of the web is unusable unless that can be defeated on the fly.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Bit Twister
2018-07-17 22:59:38 UTC
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Post by Mike Spencer
Post by Ivan Shmakov
Alternatively, an HTTP proxy can be used to modify Web pages on
the fly (like removing ads, or excessive or otherwise unwanted .js)
and with HTTPS, and moreover HSTS, that gets rather tricky.
That's my goal. An already bloated page -- say, 450K to deliver 45K
od readable text -- can double or quadrupal in size when all of the
<LINKed, img, ad and other files are called in. On a slow connection,
much of the web is unusable unless that can be defeated on the fly.
I use privoxy proxy server. Write up found at http://www.privoxy.org/.

That allows for easy method to short circuit
ad sites. You can google for hosts ad site blocking like
https://someonewhocares.org/hosts/
to get a running start at making your own action file or use
privoxy action file
in the first box at https://encrypted.google.com/advanced_search
to see other action files.

I use NoScript addon in
firefox to see what sites that want to add java content to the page.




It is also possible to configure firefox to only download content
as you view it instead it pulling down all content on the page.

http://kb.mozillazine.org/Network.prefetch-next

Snippet/setting from my preference file (about:config)
user_pref("network.prefetch-next", false);
John Forkosh
2018-07-07 07:52:33 UTC
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Post by Mike Spencer
I'm still using Slack 11.0 on my main box.
It's old -- IBM P4 -- but Slack 12 ran fine. I
downgraded to 11.0, bought the DVD from Patrick.
It's because the libraries -- glibc? -- in 12.0 and after don't
support Netscape Navigator 4.76.
If libraries are your only reason/problem, you can probably
pick off the libraries you need from your 11.0 dvd and install
them on a later slackware.

I had a similar "libraries problem" with Crisp version 2.2e,
an old free/share-ware version of the now-pricey crisp.com editor.
It stopped running somewhere around slack 8-or-9, but the executable
image announced the libraries it couldn't find, which I was able
to just copy over from earlier slackwares. Then crisp2.2e worked fine.
(But then after a while I just decided it was time to learn emacs.)
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: ***@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )
Mike Spencer
2018-07-07 19:54:35 UTC
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Post by John Forkosh
Post by Mike Spencer
I'm still using Slack 11.0 on my main box.
[...]
It's because the libraries -- glibc? -- in 12.0 and after don't
support Netscape Navigator 4.76.
If libraries are your only reason/problem, you can probably
pick off the libraries you need from your 11.0 dvd and install
them on a later slackware.
Yeah. I suppose I should try that. Less demanding of limited
resources on the now elderly P4 than a VM. I've messed with that
before. I have a copy of Maple V, picked up at a yard sale, that
requires (I forget) lib4 or lib5. Had it all working on Slack 10,
never got it right again after going 10->12->11.

IIRC, there are several assorted pitfalls, gotchas and the like in
trying to get old libs to run in parallel with curent ones. But I
might try it on my testbed laptop for Slack 14.2 upgrade.
Post by John Forkosh
I had a similar "libraries problem" with Crisp version 2.2e,
an old free/share-ware version of the now-pricey crisp.com editor.
It stopped running somewhere around slack 8-or-9, but the executable
image announced the libraries it couldn't find, which I was able
to just copy over from earlier slackwares. Then crisp2.2e worked fine.
(But then after a while I just decided it was time to learn emacs.)
Hah! I was shunted, more or less by happenstance, straight from
WordStar on CP/M to Emacs on Unix & X. After a rocky courtship, we've
been inseperable for 30 years. :-)
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Michael Black
2018-07-08 14:07:51 UTC
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Post by Mike Spencer
Why do I want NN 4.76? It allows me easily to turn off js and images,
doesn't support autoloading of files in <LINK... tags, doesn't support
CSS and several other things that cause me annoyance. Unfortunately,
Slack 11 won't, AFAICT, run FF newer than 2.x so all the sites that
are opting for the very latest crypto protocol are going dark for me.
Do individuals still compile the glossy browsers now?

If so, maybe the options you want are still in the source code, but
commented out since "nobody wants a graphic browser that doesn't do
graphics". So if you could uncomment those old menu entries, and compile,
then you get the latest brosser but with the ability to set things like
the old ones.

I'd completely forgotten that those options were there.

I used lynx for a long time, it was my primary browser for 16 years until
I moved to DSL. And there was always the option of viewing a graphic by
invoking a graphic program, that always worked well. But there were also
pages that were hard to figure out without a graphic browser, and I
suspect that's even worse now.

I don't remember a lot of problems in the "distant past", but in recent
years I've realy had to upgrade graphic browsers, sites no longer letting
me in. Some, like indigo, don't even have the decency to tell you you
need a newer browser, I'd enter my name and password and it would just sit
there churning "forever". But I guess some of that is because I'm
actually using the internet to order things and check my bank account, so
there is real reason to keep security up.

Michael
Henrik Carlqvist
2018-07-04 05:45:51 UTC
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It has been a long time since the most recent release of Slackware
It might have been long, but I would not say surprisingly long.
that philosophy may result in an obsolete system. That does not mean
"useless", of course, but it does mean "less useful".
Usually each Slackware release gets gets some kind of support for at
least 5 years. However, this support might decrease as some upstream
package sources might stop supporting the old envirinment.

For instance, Slackware 13.0 is at the time of this writing still
supported, but has not had any updated firefox package since version
3.6.28 which was released spring 2012.

So it might be a rather good decision to mark Slackware 13 EOL within
some day...

Even though it might not work with all packages, in most cases when you
feel the need of a newer version of something you can simply download the
newer source and update the slackbuild script. This applies both to the
slackbuild scripts included with Slackware and scripts from other sources
like slackbuilds.org. However, doing that with an application might also
rise the need to do so with a few libraries and in the end you might not
have a more stable system than Slackware current.

regards Henrik
Eef Hartman
2018-07-04 10:40:03 UTC
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Post by Henrik Carlqvist
So it might be a rather good decision to mark Slackware 13 EOL within
some day...
This week all 13.* releases will go EOL:
Fri Apr 6 20:47:43 UTC 2018
####################################################################
# NOTICE OF INPENDING EOL (END OF LIFE) FOR OLD SLACKWARE VERSIONS #
# #
# Effective July 5, 2018, security patches will no longer be #
# provided for the following versions of Slackware (which will all #
# be more than 7 years old at that time): #
# Slackware 13.0, Slackware 13.1, Slackware 13.37. #
# If you are still running these versions you should consider #
# migrating to a newer version (preferably as recent as possible). #
# Alternately, you may make arrangements to handle your own #
# security patches. #
####################################################################
(from the ChangeLog.txt)

Actually even 14.0 is already almost 6 years old so may go EOL
"real soon now" <grin>.
s***@Rosevear.hopto.org
2018-07-04 06:18:14 UTC
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Post by James H. Markowitz
It has been a long time since the most recent release of
Slackware was announced. In the meantime, numerous packages have become
obsolete. Even in Slackbuilds, many packages can't be updated because
they depend on new versions of software that is indeed available in the
latest release, 14.2, but in rather old versions, sometimes not even
supported any longer.
14.2 is currently over two years old - an eternity in the Linux
world. While I am all for the Slackware philosophy of making sure that
the system is stable, rather than having the latest and greatest (and I
love the fact that Slackware keeps shunning systemd) the truth is, that
philosophy may result in an obsolete system. That does not mean
"useless", of course, but it does mean "less useful".
The fact is that 14.2 is seriously beginning to show its age,
even with the pathes regularly released for it. There is activity in the
current branch all right but, it does not seem to be the case that a new
release is imminent - meaning anything less than several months, at best.
I never thought it would come to this but, if no new Slackware
release is announced within the next couple of months, I will seriously
start looking into other distributions, or perhaps one of the BSDs.
I learned an interesting saying many years ago:

If you want it bad, that's how you get it.

Yes, there has been a reduction in the rate of Slackware releases.
(See my graph at
http://joeslife.org/projects/slack_stuff/graph/releases-r.pdf )

Perhaps you are in a hurry?

-Joe
Mike Spencer
2018-07-05 23:41:38 UTC
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Post by s***@Rosevear.hopto.org
Perhaps you are in a hurry?
Omnes festinatio ex parte diaboli est.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

My electric toaster is 105 years old and works fine.
Ralph Spitzner
2018-07-07 12:41:59 UTC
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Post by James H. Markowitz
I never thought it would come to this but, if no new Slackware
release is announced within the next couple of months, I will seriously
start looking into other distributions, or perhaps one of the BSDs.
Just my 0.02$
I'm running slackware since '98 (not on the same machine :-) , and I'm
pretty sure I've learned how to update 'packages' and 'dependencies' on
my own by now.

I'm following -current right now.
I also prepare my own kernel,
So, in any case Slackware is a good starting point if you want to
_understand_ your system, it's easier than LFS, anyway.

Some people need a Windows replacement, though.
That's why Debuntnut takes the fame...

Also Slackware really is just a few people _not_ driving
Ferrari's or Tesla's to go to work :-P



-rasp
ruben safir
2018-07-24 02:50:26 UTC
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Post by James H. Markowitz
It has been a long time since the most recent release of
Slackware was announced. In the meantime, numerous packages have become
obsolete. Even in Slackbuilds, many packages can't be updated because
they depend on new versions of software that is indeed available in the
latest release, 14.2, but in rather old versions, sometimes not even
supported any longer.
14.2 is currently over two years old - an eternity in the Linux
world. While I am all for the Slackware philosophy of making sure that
the system is stable, rather than having the latest and greatest (and I
love the fact that Slackware keeps shunning systemd) the truth is, that
philosophy may result in an obsolete system. That does not mean
"useless", of course, but it does mean "less useful".
The fact is that 14.2 is seriously beginning to show its age,
even with the pathes regularly released for it. There is activity in the
current branch all right but, it does not seem to be the case that a new
release is imminent - meaning anything less than several months, at best.
I never thought it would come to this but, if no new Slackware
release is announced within the next couple of months, I will seriously
start looking into other distributions, or perhaps one of the BSDs.
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751


 Today, 03:14 PM #8
volkerdi
Slackware Maintainer

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Minnesota
Distribution: Slackware! :-)
Posts: 1,528

Rep: 
I told them to take it down or I'd suspend the DNS for the store.

I've been mulling over exactly how to tell you all this, and I guess
this is as good a place as any. The store has been ripping me off
horribly, and I'm very nearly broke. I have no evidence that they've
ever done anything with donations besides line their own pockets. I've
not been paid any money by them in two years. That was upon the 14.2
release (and followed another long period of time with no income). The
14.2 release generated nearly $100K in revenue. The store gave me $15K,
and later said that I was "overpaid".

When I agreed to set up the store, it was structured as a company where
they owned 60%, and my wife and I owned 40%. I had not yet escaped
California and would have quickly gone broke there with a house
underwater had I not taken the deal. And 60% seemed fair, since the idea
was that the company would be providing health insurance, paying for the
production of the goods, and handling shipping and related customer
service. And when my daughter was born and needed surgery and continuing
medical attention I could hardly jeopardize our insurance in the days
before the ACA. I was between a rock and a hard place like many
residents of the US. Since then, the store has ceased to provide any
benefits, and shouldn't even be getting a 50/50 split in my opinion,
much less looting the coffers for 81+% (anything they want to spend
money on is an expense, apparently, while any expenses I have to support
the actual project come out of the peanuts they toss me). I only found
out about how bad it really was last year when I finally managed to get
some numbers out of them. I thought the sales were just that bad, and
was really rather depressed about it. Another side note - the ownership
of the 60% portion of the store changed hands behind my back. Nobody
thought they needed to tell me about this. At that point I'd say things
got considerably worse for me.

Still not sure how to move forward, but I have some hope that the
community might think that my work is and has been worth supporting. If
at all possible I'd like to get away from replicating physical media
which seems to be a lost cause. T-shirts? Well, maybe, but I don't see
that providing a reasonable income either. I'm wondering how Patreon
would do. It would at least be better than nothing, which is where I am now.

Through all of this I have continued to work hard towards getting
Slackware 15.0 released because I believe it will be by far the best
release we've ever had, and because I'm dedicated to my work and the
community that uses it. I've never really been in this for the money. At
any given juncture (including now) I've had numerous opportunities that
would support me and my family far better and would provide us with the
things that we need rather desperately. I mean, I'm sitting here in a
house with a giant hole in the roof, a broken door sealed with duct
tape, and a failed air conditioning condenser that I can't afford to
fix, my wife has been driving on a spare tire for weeks, my teeth need
serious attention again, and I only just got a machine here with UEFI
for the first time (bought a used machine... really out of my budget but
it had to be done).

I'm open to suggestions at this point. As far as Slackware 15.0 goes,
I've been testing PAM and Kerberos here and have given quite some
thought to trying to get them merged (or at least in /testing) so that
we can have proper support for Active Directory and NFS. Plasma 5 has
been a consideration as well, although frankly it's grown much larger
than GNOME was back when I decided that should be spun off for third
party maintenance. If that's going in, we really need to analyze which
dependencies would not be used outside of Plasma and stick all of those
in the KDE series. I'm as tired of the pollution of the L series as the
rest of you are.

"I did this 'cause Linux gives me a woody. It doesn't generate revenue."
-- Dave '-ddt->` Taylor, announcing DOOM for Linux

8
James H. Markowitz
2018-07-24 14:04:10 UTC
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Post by ruben safir
I'm open to suggestions at this point. As far as Slackware 15.0 goes,
I've been testing PAM and Kerberos here and have given quite some
thought to trying to get them merged (or at least in /testing) so that
we can have proper support for Active Directory and NFS. Plasma 5 has
been a consideration as well, although frankly it's grown much larger
than GNOME was back when I decided that should be spun off for third
party maintenance. If that's going in, we really need to analyze which
dependencies would not be used outside of Plasma and stick all of those
in the KDE series. I'm as tired of the pollution of the L series as the
rest of you are.
This is all a bit ominous.
The Real Bev
2018-07-24 15:33:35 UTC
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Post by James H. Markowitz
Post by ruben safir
I'm open to suggestions at this point. As far as Slackware 15.0 goes,
I've been testing PAM and Kerberos here and have given quite some
thought to trying to get them merged (or at least in /testing) so that
we can have proper support for Active Directory and NFS. Plasma 5 has
been a consideration as well, although frankly it's grown much larger
than GNOME was back when I decided that should be spun off for third
party maintenance. If that's going in, we really need to analyze which
dependencies would not be used outside of Plasma and stick all of those
in the KDE series. I'm as tired of the pollution of the L series as the
rest of you are.
This is all a bit ominous.
That was volkerdi's last post in Linux Questions. He's been answering
slackware questions for a long time. 7 pages of responses -- "I
canceled my subscription", "How can I send money?" etc. No answers yet.

How can I send money?
--
Cheers, Bev
It doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always gets in.
notbob
2018-07-24 20:20:00 UTC
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    This is all a bit ominous.
That was volkerdi's last post in Linux Questions.  He's been answering
slackware questions for a long time.  7 pages of responses -- "I
canceled my subscription", "How can I send money?" etc.  No answers yet.
How can I send money?
A direct donation will always be welcome.

If pat wants to bail, let him. Geez, he almost died for you, ferchrysakes!

I've already learned all about LFS. If Pat can do it, so can you!

nb
The Real Bev
2018-07-25 05:09:57 UTC
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Post by notbob
Post by The Real Bev
How can I send money?
A direct donation will always be welcome.
Got an address?
--
Cheers, Bev
Polish loan sharks: they loan you money and then skip town.
Henrik Carlqvist
2018-07-24 20:41:40 UTC
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Post by ruben safir
Still not sure how to move forward, but I have some hope that the
community might think that my work is and has been worth supporting. If
at all possible I'd like to get away from replicating physical media
which seems to be a lost cause. T-shirts? Well, maybe, but I don't see
that providing a reasonable income either. I'm wondering how Patreon
would do. It would at least be better than nothing, which is where I am now.
If a replacement is needed for the Slackware store there are many out
there helping you to sell customized T-shirts. I did some googling and
also found at least one which helps you sell custom CD/DVDs:

http://kunaki.com/

I have no experience from them myself, but from their description it
seems perfect for selling your custom data media to customers all over
the world. However, I did not find any mentioning about dual layer DVD or
bluray which probably will be needed in the future...

I think that there are many out there that would like to support
Slackware more than once about every third year when there is a new
release. I also think that at least a few people would be willing to buy
a DVD called something like "Slackware64 14.2 with latest patches at end
of June 2018".

Unfortunately I am aware that The Man is not reading posts in this NG,
but I hope he will find a solution and that we will be able to continue
to order our Slackware installation media.

regards Henrik
John Forkosh
2018-07-25 06:49:29 UTC
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Post by ruben safir
Post by James H. Markowitz
The fact is that 14.2 is seriously beginning to show its age,
even with the patches regularly released for it. There is activity in the
current branch all right but, it does not seem to be the case that a new
release is imminent - meaning anything less than several months, at best.
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751
Thanks for the link. Very, very disturbing, indeed!!!
Note the several posts below PV's offering to donate directly to him,
bypassing the store entirely. That certainly seems like what needs
to be done. Somebody, some way, somehow, set up some kind of paypal
or gofundme-like or anything page directly (and I mean >>directly<<)
to PV???
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: ***@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )
Alexander Grotewohl
2018-07-25 14:43:27 UTC
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Post by John Forkosh
Post by ruben safir
Post by James H. Markowitz
The fact is that 14.2 is seriously beginning to show its age,
even with the patches regularly released for it. There is activity in the
current branch all right but, it does not seem to be the case that a new
release is imminent - meaning anything less than several months, at best.
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751
Thanks for the link. Very, very disturbing, indeed!!!
Note the several posts below PV's offering to donate directly to him,
bypassing the store entirely. That certainly seems like what needs
to be done. Somebody, some way, somehow, set up some kind of paypal
or gofundme-like or anything page directly (and I mean >>directly<<)
to PV???
I'd hop on the patreon bandwagon personally. It's ubiquitous enough, and
might draw in some non slackware users too (seems odd, but slack has
done a lot of good for other distributions, not to mention people who
just like to give to linux)

That and you have people who forget they're subbed, see it come out
every month, say oh yeah I don't mind that, and go about their lives.
Better than a one-off if you ask me.

Alex
john connolly
2018-07-25 14:53:33 UTC
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Post by Alexander Grotewohl
Post by John Forkosh
Post by ruben safir
Post by James H. Markowitz
The fact is that 14.2 is seriously beginning to show its age,
even with the patches regularly released for it. There is activity in the
current branch all right but, it does not seem to be the case that a new
release is imminent - meaning anything less than several months, at best.
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751
Thanks for the link. Very, very disturbing, indeed!!!
Note the several posts below PV's offering to donate directly to him,
bypassing the store entirely. That certainly seems like what needs
to be done. Somebody, some way, somehow, set up some kind of paypal
or gofundme-like or anything page directly (and I mean >>directly<<)
to PV???
I'd hop on the patreon bandwagon personally. It's ubiquitous enough, and
might draw in some non slackware users too (seems odd, but slack has
done a lot of good for other distributions, not to mention people who
just like to give to linux)
That and you have people who forget they're subbed, see it come out
every month, say oh yeah I don't mind that, and go about their lives.
Better than a one-off if you ask me.
Alex
I became a subscriber years ago when Pat got sick. I don't know if that
helped him then or not but it appears that it doesn't now. I would like
to donate to his well-being now if a fund gets established.
jwc
notbob
2018-07-25 15:56:48 UTC
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Post by John Forkosh
Post by ruben safir
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751
Thanks for the link. Very, very disturbing, indeed!!!
True enough!

I had no idea things were so bad fer Pat. Now, I'm glad I've been too
borderline poor (fixed income) to support the store, but I'd gladly send
what I can to help him out.

He's been helping me out fer 15 yrs! ;)

nb
Michael Black
2018-07-25 21:08:59 UTC
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Post by notbob
Post by John Forkosh
Post by ruben safir
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751
Thanks for the link. Very, very disturbing, indeed!!!
True enough!
I had no idea things were so bad fer Pat. Now, I'm glad I've been too
borderline poor (fixed income) to support the store, but I'd gladly send what
I can to help him out.
He's been helping me out fer 15 yrs! ;)
And that's the sad thing. Not only has he not beeng getting the proper
income from the store, but how many times have we seen people here say "I
don't need the DVD, but I'm buying it anyway to support Slackware"? He
got a small percentage of that, and apparently he didn't even get that.

There's been a shift, people with blogs now seem they can ask for
donations. But I got an appeal to subscribe to something last year, and I
didn't want the subscription, because it was a paper subscription and I'd
then have to pay more for postage to Canada. If they'd just asked for
some money, I probably would, especially now that I actually have some
money I can think about giving away. Here it's the same, buying the
"prodcuts" doesn't seem to have worked out so well, while donating might
(though it's not clear if the donated money in the past was going through
this third party). It's cheaper to send a donation than buy a product, or
at least, more efficient.

I would have thought there were endless "fullfillment" places that would
be happy to do this sort of thing in addition to the other companies they
service, and probably for a lesser percentage, but that's just a guess.

MIchael
The Real Bev
2018-07-26 00:56:19 UTC
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Post by Michael Black
I would have thought there were endless "fullfillment" places that would
be happy to do this sort of thing in addition to the other companies they
service, and probably for a lesser percentage, but that's just a guess.
I'm bothered that Patrick has made no posts in this thread (the only one
I'm reading here) since the first one. Is it possible that the original
post was NOT actually by Patrick?
--
Cheers, Bev
"I just realized how bad the economy really is. I recently
bought a new toaster oven and as a complimentary gift,
I was given a bank." -- L. Legro
The Real Bev
2018-07-26 00:58:04 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
Post by Michael Black
I would have thought there were endless "fullfillment" places that would
be happy to do this sort of thing in addition to the other companies they
service, and probably for a lesser percentage, but that's just a guess.
I'm bothered that Patrick has made no posts in this thread (the only one
I'm reading here) since the first one. Is it possible that the original
post was NOT actually by Patrick?
I meant the Linux Questions thread, not this a.o.l.s thread. Carry on.
--
Cheers, Bev
"I just realized how bad the economy really is. I recently
bought a new toaster oven and as a complimentary gift,
I was given a bank." -- L. Legro
Michael Black
2018-07-26 03:47:26 UTC
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Post by Michael Black
I would have thought there were endless "fullfillment" places that would
be happy to do this sort of thing in addition to the other companies they
service, and probably for a lesser percentage, but that's just a guess.
I'm bothered that Patrick has made no posts in this thread (the only one I'm
reading here) since the first one. Is it possible that the original post was
NOT actually by Patrick?
That was my first thought. Nothing has shown up on the changelog about
this, and I did check the front page of the slackware site after seeing
the link to this story, and there wasn't anything there. Both places have
more legitimacy than a post on a third party site. Maybe he doesn't want
to make a big thing of it yet, but he already has, as Martha points out,
it's starting to spread. The time is to get some official announcement
out.

When he was ill, there was all kinds of talk, until he finally wrote
something about it. This is the same thing, a "shocking" post but no
followup, nothing on website of record? I could certainly see if someone
wanted to do damage, pretending to be Patrick and saying something like
this would do it.

On the other hand, if it is a real issue, it needs more press, and needs a
resolve. After seeing that post, I'm thinking maybe the reason there have
been such long stretches between releases is he's lost interest, or maybe
has to do other things to bring in money. I remember a long gap, I don't
think in the last two years but before the release before 14.2 where there
was a long stretch between changelog entries. I think there was finally
an explanation, but I can't remember it or specific date.

Michael
The Real Bev
2018-07-26 05:26:26 UTC
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Post by Michael Black
Post by Michael Black
I would have thought there were endless "fullfillment" places that would
be happy to do this sort of thing in addition to the other companies they
service, and probably for a lesser percentage, but that's just a guess.
I'm bothered that Patrick has made no posts in this thread (the only one I'm
reading here) since the first one. Is it possible that the original post was
NOT actually by Patrick?
That was my first thought. Nothing has shown up on the changelog about
this, and I did check the front page of the slackware site after seeing
the link to this story, and there wasn't anything there. Both places have
more legitimacy than a post on a third party site. Maybe he doesn't want
to make a big thing of it yet, but he already has, as Martha points out,
it's starting to spread. The time is to get some official announcement
out.
something about it. This is the same thing, a "shocking" post but no
followup, nothing on website of record? I could certainly see if someone
wanted to do damage, pretending to be Patrick and saying something like
this would do it.
On the other hand, if it is a real issue, it needs more press, and needs a
resolve. After seeing that post, I'm thinking maybe the reason there have
been such long stretches between releases is he's lost interest, or maybe
has to do other things to bring in money. I remember a long gap, I don't
think in the last two years but before the release before 14.2 where there
was a long stretch between changelog entries. I think there was finally
an explanation, but I can't remember it or specific date.
volkerdi replied today in the linuxquestions thread with comments about
setting up improved financing facilities (Patreon, etc.) and giving a
Paypal account. Lots of people contributed. So will we when we're sure
this is legit.
--
Cheers, Bev
"There are only two reasons to sit in the back row of an
airplane: Either you have diarrhoea, or you're anxious to
meet people who do." -- Rich Jeni
Rich
2018-07-26 13:50:35 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
volkerdi replied today in the linuxquestions thread with comments
about setting up improved financing facilities (Patreon, etc.) and
giving a Paypal account. Lots of people contributed. So will we
when we're sure this is legit.
If anyone has access to be able to reply on the thread, someone might
want to mention that there have been reports of Paypal suspending
accounts (and locking up the funds) that were being used for donations
because the flood of transactions triggered their fraud prevention
code.

So PV might be best advised to extract the Paypal money as soon as he
can into another bank, and to eventually consider not using Paypal for
this.
Rinaldi J. Montessi
2018-07-26 14:08:26 UTC
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Post by Rich
Post by The Real Bev
volkerdi replied today in the linuxquestions thread with comments
about setting up improved financing facilities (Patreon, etc.) and
giving a Paypal account. Lots of people contributed. So will we
when we're sure this is legit.
If anyone has access to be able to reply on the thread, someone might
want to mention that there have been reports of Paypal suspending
accounts (and locking up the funds) that were being used for donations
because the flood of transactions triggered their fraud prevention
code.
So PV might be best advised to extract the Paypal money as soon as he
can into another bank, and to eventually consider not using Paypal for
this.
This appears to be legit.

https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi

Rinaldi
--
"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of purge."
The Real Bev
2018-07-26 15:19:51 UTC
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Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
Post by Rich
Post by The Real Bev
volkerdi replied today in the linuxquestions thread with comments
about setting up improved financing facilities (Patreon, etc.) and
giving a Paypal account. Lots of people contributed. So will we
when we're sure this is legit.
If anyone has access to be able to reply on the thread, someone might
want to mention that there have been reports of Paypal suspending
accounts (and locking up the funds) that were being used for donations
because the flood of transactions triggered their fraud prevention
code.
So PV might be best advised to extract the Paypal money as soon as he
can into another bank, and to eventually consider not using Paypal for
this.
This appears to be legit.
https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi
Was it on the slackware website a long time ago?
--
Cheers, Bev
I bought a tape called "Subliminal Advertising"
The next day I bought 47 more.
Rinaldi J. Montessi
2018-07-26 15:39:22 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
Post by Rich
Post by The Real Bev
volkerdi replied today in the linuxquestions thread with comments
about setting up improved financing facilities (Patreon, etc.) and
giving a Paypal account.  Lots of people contributed.  So will we
when we're sure this is legit.
If anyone has access to be able to reply on the thread, someone might
want to mention that there have been reports of Paypal suspending
accounts (and locking up the funds) that were being used for donations
because the flood of transactions triggered their fraud prevention
code.
So PV might be best advised to extract the Paypal money as soon as he
can into another bank, and to eventually consider not using Paypal for
this.
This appears to be legit.
https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi
Was it on the slackware website a long time ago?
No. It was posted by PV in a follow up on LQ. Same thread as original
post.

Rinaldi
--
I have more humility in my little finger than you have in your whole
____BODY!
-- from "Cerebus" #82
Eef Hartman
2018-07-26 15:55:47 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi
Was it on the slackware website a long time ago?
No: that one went to the store as they _used_ to handle all the
financial business for Slackware (subscriptions, merchandise,
donations, etc.)
This one is his PRIVATE account, which he temporarily published until
a more permanent solution can be set up.
Rich
2018-07-26 15:20:51 UTC
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Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
Post by Rich
Post by The Real Bev
volkerdi replied today in the linuxquestions thread with comments
about setting up improved financing facilities (Patreon, etc.) and
giving a Paypal account. Lots of people contributed. So will we
when we're sure this is legit.
If anyone has access to be able to reply on the thread, someone
might want to mention that there have been reports of Paypal
suspending accounts (and locking up the funds) that were being used
for donations because the flood of transactions triggered their
fraud prevention code.
So PV might be best advised to extract the Paypal money as soon as
he can into another bank, and to eventually consider not using
Paypal for this.
This appears to be legit.
https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi
Ah, and being a "paypal.me" variant, it might avoid the issues that
have been reported by using the regular paypal.com site for
donation/money transfers type of activity.
notbob
2018-07-26 14:51:20 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
Is it possible that the original
post was NOT actually by Patrick?
Anything is "possible", including the possibility that the complaint is
NOT authentic.

The news has spread, so it's only a matter of time before the truth will
out!

"iTWire has written to the Slackware store, seeking comment on
Volkerding's claims."

https://www.itwire.com/open-source/83757-slackware-creator-in-strife,-claims-store-has-not-paid-him.html

nb
John Forkosh
2018-07-26 19:20:22 UTC
Reply
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Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
Post by Rich
Post by The Real Bev
volkerdi replied today in the linuxquestions thread with comments
about setting up improved financing facilities (Patreon, etc.) and
giving a Paypal account. Lots of people contributed. So will we
when we're sure this is legit.
If anyone has access to be able to reply on the thread, someone might
want to mention that there have been reports of Paypal suspending
accounts (and locking up the funds) that were being used for donations
because the flood of transactions triggered their fraud prevention
code.
So PV might be best advised to extract the Paypal money as soon as he
can into another bank, and to eventually consider not using Paypal for
this.
This appears to be legit.
https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi
Was it on the slackware website a long time ago?
No. It was posted by PV in a follow up on LQ.
Same thread as original post.
Rinaldi
What thread, exactly? this "original" one cited earlier???...

https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751

I don't see paypal.me/volkerdi mentioned anywhere in that thread.
You got an explicit url where it's actually, verifiably mentioned by PV?
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: ***@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )
The Real Bev
2018-07-26 19:33:01 UTC
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Post by John Forkosh
Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
Post by Rich
Post by The Real Bev
volkerdi replied today in the linuxquestions thread with comments
about setting up improved financing facilities (Patreon, etc.) and
giving a Paypal account. Lots of people contributed. So will we
when we're sure this is legit.
If anyone has access to be able to reply on the thread, someone might
want to mention that there have been reports of Paypal suspending
accounts (and locking up the funds) that were being used for donations
because the flood of transactions triggered their fraud prevention
code.
So PV might be best advised to extract the Paypal money as soon as he
can into another bank, and to eventually consider not using Paypal for
this.
This appears to be legit.
https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi
Was it on the slackware website a long time ago?
No. It was posted by PV in a follow up on LQ.
Same thread as original post.
Rinaldi
What thread, exactly? this "original" one cited earlier???...
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751
I don't see paypal.me/volkerdi mentioned anywhere in that thread.
You got an explicit url where it's actually, verifiably mentioned by PV?
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/page11.html

Post #165.
--
Cheers, Bev
It's true that Smokey Bear deserves praise for his
campaign against forest fires, but nobody ever mentions
the park rangers he kills for their hats.
John Forkosh
2018-07-26 21:39:46 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
Post by John Forkosh
Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
Post by Rich
Post by The Real Bev
volkerdi replied today in the linuxquestions thread with comments
about setting up improved financing facilities (Patreon, etc.) and
giving a Paypal account. Lots of people contributed. So will we
when we're sure this is legit.
If anyone has access to be able to reply on the thread, someone might
want to mention that there have been reports of Paypal suspending
accounts (and locking up the funds) that were being used for donations
because the flood of transactions triggered their fraud prevention
code.
So PV might be best advised to extract the Paypal money as soon as he
can into another bank, and to eventually consider not using Paypal for
this.
This appears to be legit.
https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi
Was it on the slackware website a long time ago?
No. It was posted by PV in a follow up on LQ.
Same thread as original post.
Rinaldi
What thread, exactly? this "original" one cited earlier???...
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751
I don't see paypal.me/volkerdi mentioned anywhere in that thread.
You got an explicit url where it's actually, verifiably mentioned by PV?
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/page11.html
Post #165.
Thanks, Bev (I take it that's the real, verifiable you:).
I don't use linuxquestions much (except when google sends me there)
and didn't know how to navigate through the pages (hadn't noticed
that navigation bar at the bottom-right until just now).
Hmm...and I apparently messed up the "references" trying to post
this question here.
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: ***@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )
The Real Bev
2018-07-27 04:11:33 UTC
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Post by John Forkosh
Post by The Real Bev
Post by John Forkosh
Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
Post by Rich
Post by The Real Bev
volkerdi replied today in the linuxquestions thread with comments
about setting up improved financing facilities (Patreon, etc.) and
giving a Paypal account. Lots of people contributed. So will we
when we're sure this is legit.
If anyone has access to be able to reply on the thread, someone might
want to mention that there have been reports of Paypal suspending
accounts (and locking up the funds) that were being used for donations
because the flood of transactions triggered their fraud prevention
code.
So PV might be best advised to extract the Paypal money as soon as he
can into another bank, and to eventually consider not using Paypal for
this.
This appears to be legit.
https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi
Was it on the slackware website a long time ago?
No. It was posted by PV in a follow up on LQ.
Same thread as original post.
Rinaldi
What thread, exactly? this "original" one cited earlier???...
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751
I don't see paypal.me/volkerdi mentioned anywhere in that thread.
You got an explicit url where it's actually, verifiably mentioned by PV?
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/page11.html
Post #165.
Thanks, Bev (I take it that's the real, verifiable you:).
Yup. Pay no attention to that spurious Bev hiding behind the curtain!
Post by John Forkosh
I don't use linuxquestions much (except when google sends me there)
and didn't know how to navigate through the pages (hadn't noticed
that navigation bar at the bottom-right until just now).
Hmm...and I apparently messed up the "references" trying to post
this question here.
"volkerdi" has been at Linux Questions for a long time and made a lot of
posts. Is this known by the long-timers to actually be Patrick?
--
Cheers, Bev
Linux: The penguin is mightier than the sword
Michael Black
2018-07-27 15:56:17 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
Post by John Forkosh
I don't use linuxquestions much (except when google sends me there)
and didn't know how to navigate through the pages (hadn't noticed
that navigation bar at the bottom-right until just now).
Hmm...and I apparently messed up the "references" trying to post
this question here.
"volkerdi" has been at Linux Questions for a long time and made a lot of
posts. Is this known by the long-timers to actually be Patrick?
And also, that has been the "official" site for support. People have said
that, and there's even a note on the front page of slackware.com about it.
So that is some level of reinforcement of it being Patrick.

Michael

Dan C
2018-07-27 02:38:39 UTC
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Post by ruben safir
Post by John Forkosh
Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
Post by Rich
Post by The Real Bev
volkerdi replied today in the linuxquestions thread with comments
about setting up improved financing facilities (Patreon, etc.) and
giving a Paypal account. Lots of people contributed. So will we
when we're sure this is legit.
If anyone has access to be able to reply on the thread, someone
might want to mention that there have been reports of Paypal
suspending accounts (and locking up the funds) that were being used
for donations because the flood of transactions triggered their
fraud prevention code.
So PV might be best advised to extract the Paypal money as soon as
he can into another bank, and to eventually consider not using
Paypal for this.
This appears to be legit.
https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi
Was it on the slackware website a long time ago?
No. It was posted by PV in a follow up on LQ.
Same thread as original post.
Rinaldi
What thread, exactly? this "original" one cited earlier???...
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-
slackware-4175634729/#post5882751
Post by ruben safir
Post by John Forkosh
I don't see paypal.me/volkerdi mentioned anywhere in that thread.
You got an explicit url where it's actually, verifiably mentioned by PV?
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-
slackware-4175634729/page11.html
Post by ruben safir
Post #165.
Thank you (and others) for this info.

Donation made.

Let's make this a Big Deal. Let's all get out there and support Patrick
for all the years of work he's given us.
--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
"Bother!" said Pooh, as he shot another Spotted Owl.
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Thanks, Obama: http://brandybuck.site40.net/pics/politica/thanks.jpg
John Forkosh
2018-07-27 08:13:15 UTC
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Post by ruben safir
Post by John Forkosh
Post by Rinaldi J. Montessi
This appears to be legit.
https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi
You got an explicit url where it's actually,
verifiably mentioned by PV?
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-
slackware-4175634729/page11.html
Post #165.
"volkerdi" has been at Linux Questions for a long time and made a lot
of posts. Is this known by the long-timers to actually be Patrick?
I'd noticed the long-time (and many-post) presence of that username,
too, and took that as a pretty likely (at least hopefully likely)
indication.
Thank you (and others) for this info. Donation made.
Ditto. ( I pruned this post to emphasize the info about the
https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi
link where donations, or should I say payments for services
rendered, can be made. )
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: ***@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )
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