Discussion:
Is Apple maxed out now?
(too old to reply)
Martha Adams
2019-05-26 14:06:37 UTC
Permalink
I notice news about Apple being a world's most valuable brand. How
does that happen and how long will it last? I personally have *zero*
Apple hardware/software anywhere in my working directories, and I
can't see that any of that is particularly useful. I've been a Slacker
using twm for the past couple of decades and if Slackware continues to
fade, I think Arch or one of the BSDs are the best options for me.
*And,* generally.

But I think there's a useful lesson in here somewhere. Microsoft and
Apple. How do those closed OSs get to occupy any prominent site in
the popular mind?

Titeotwawki -- Martha Adams [Sun 2019 May 26]
Grant Taylor
2019-05-26 17:10:36 UTC
Permalink
How do those closed OSs get to occupy any prominent site in the
popular mind?
I don't think it's about the Operating Systems. It may be /some/ about
the application software (particularly for Microsoft).

Much of what I see with Apple / Microsoft / IBM / et al. is that they
sell and support total solutions.

Microsoft: You want a corporate integrated web accessible email system
that your assistant can run on your behalf? Then you want
$reallyBIGpcakageCollection.

Apple: You want to be able to easily create a video using the camera on
your phone, edit it, share it to the web and show it off on your phone
while wearing wireless headphones? Then you want $theseProducts.

People, especially businesses, are after as turn-key solutions as
possible. The operating system, what ever it is, is only one of /many/
components to the larger overall solution. Some parts are OS agnostic,
other parts are inherently tied to the solution's vendor.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
notbob
2019-05-27 17:03:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
People, especially businesses, are after as turn-key solutions as
possible. The operating system, what ever it is, is only one of /many/
components to the larger overall solution. Some parts are OS agnostic,
other parts are inherently tied to the solution's vendor.
I've seen my ex-company buy software merely cuz the seller was the
buyer's roomy in college. The "buyer" didn't hafta use it, so.....
Ppl actually quit the company over this particular software choice!

Hadda eliminate all Apple products, of which this division of the
company was one third of all computers.

It then spent $4Musd to Oracle to try and find an M$ solution. I
don't know if they did or if HP's Unix remained the dominant OS (as it
had been (dumb terminals, tape storage, etc.). I got laid off along
with 95% of Silicon Valley (SV).

I do know the M$ "solution" required 22 more steps (read: mouse
clicks) than the equivalent Unix process (which had, long ago, been
specialized. (specialized keyboards, NIC's, etc.) ;)

nb
Jerry Peters
2019-05-27 20:21:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martha Adams
I notice news about Apple being a world's most valuable brand. How
does that happen and how long will it last? I personally have *zero*
Apple hardware/software anywhere in my working directories, and I
can't see that any of that is particularly useful. I've been a Slacker
using twm for the past couple of decades and if Slackware continues to
fade, I think Arch or one of the BSDs are the best options for me.
*And,* generally.
But I think there's a useful lesson in here somewhere. Microsoft and
Apple. How do those closed OSs get to occupy any prominent site in
the popular mind?
Titeotwawki -- Martha Adams [Sun 2019 May 26]
How about CUPS? It's part of the standard Slack install and is mostly
from Apple.
Grant Taylor
2019-05-28 04:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Peters
How about CUPS? It's part of the standard Slack install and is mostly
from Apple.
It's my understanding that Apple is the /current/ caretaker of CUPS.
But I'm fairly certain that CUPS didn't originate from Apple.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Aragorn
2019-05-28 04:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by Jerry Peters
How about CUPS? It's part of the standard Slack install and is
mostly from Apple.
It's my understanding that Apple is the /current/ caretaker of CUPS.
But I'm fairly certain that CUPS didn't originate from Apple.
It didn't, but they hired the guy who originally wrote it in 1991, and
they bought the source code from him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUPS
--
With respect,
= Aragorn =
Jimmy Johnson
2019-06-01 04:49:40 UTC
Permalink
I notice news about Apple being a world's most valuable brand.  How
does that happen and how long will it last?
Supposedly Apple is not tracking you on your phone or computer or so
they say and people are willing to pay for their privacy.
--
Jimmy Johnson

14.2 - KDE - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 - Registered Linux User #380263
tom
2019-06-08 20:31:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 26 May 2019 10:06:37 -0400
Post by Martha Adams
I notice news about Apple being a world's most valuable brand. How
does that happen and how long will it last? I personally have *zero*
Apple hardware/software anywhere in my working directories, and I
can't see that any of that is particularly useful. I've been a
Slacker using twm for the past couple of decades and if Slackware
continues to fade, I think Arch or one of the BSDs are the best
options for me. *And,* generally.
But I think there's a useful lesson in here somewhere. Microsoft and
Apple. How do those closed OSs get to occupy any prominent site in
the popular mind?
Titeotwawki -- Martha Adams [Sun 2019 May 26]
Their target audience is troglodytes. The majority of people are
troglodytes. Apple could sell their users literal white dogshit for
$1000 dollars each, call it the iShit, and their users would buy it. If
only to brag to others that they have one.

It's a completely different kind of market. The consumer market versus
to commercial, enterprise, and hobbyist market.

Have you ever wondered why XMPP exists but the majority of Americans
are still on siloed IM networks? Because some marketing person told
them it was TrEnDy.
Jerry Peters
2019-06-09 20:37:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by tom
On Sun, 26 May 2019 10:06:37 -0400
Post by Martha Adams
I notice news about Apple being a world's most valuable brand. How
does that happen and how long will it last? I personally have *zero*
Apple hardware/software anywhere in my working directories, and I
can't see that any of that is particularly useful. I've been a
Slacker using twm for the past couple of decades and if Slackware
continues to fade, I think Arch or one of the BSDs are the best
options for me. *And,* generally.
But I think there's a useful lesson in here somewhere. Microsoft and
Apple. How do those closed OSs get to occupy any prominent site in
the popular mind?
Titeotwawki -- Martha Adams [Sun 2019 May 26]
Their target audience is troglodytes. The majority of people are
troglodytes. Apple could sell their users literal white dogshit for
$1000 dollars each, call it the iShit, and their users would buy it. If
only to brag to others that they have one.
UK Reg has an article about an Apple $999 monitor stand, so yes they
will buy overpriced junk as long as it's from Apple.
Steve555
2019-06-18 16:55:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martha Adams
I notice news about Apple being a world's most valuable brand. How
does that happen and how long will it last? I personally have *zero*
Apple hardware/software anywhere in my working directories, and I
can't see that any of that is particularly useful. I've been a Slacker
using twm for the past couple of decades and if Slackware continues to
fade, I think Arch or one of the BSDs are the best options for me.
*And,* generally.
But I think there's a useful lesson in here somewhere. Microsoft and
Apple. How do those closed OSs get to occupy any prominent site in
the popular mind?
Titeotwawki -- Martha Adams [Sun 2019 May 26]
I remember this story from 2016, and similar stories from the last
couple of years:- https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/23/
apple-captures-record-91-percent-of-global-smartphone-profits-research.html

You have to take your hats off to them for understanding their customers
and their marketing. I think it's nothing to do with computers and
technology. They are selling high-fashion appliances. You're not really
even supposed to know its a computer. It's a magic box. And they have
figured out how to attach a high brand value cachet to it. I can't think
of people queueing up from midnight to buy a new thinkpad, but for an
iphone or ipad these kinds of scenes are now taken for granted.

Are they maxed out? They only have a minority of market share...
android and windows respectively have vastly more share than ios and mac.
But as the article says, they capture the majority of the profit.

So provided they can pull off the same trick in new markets, they can
continue to grow. What new markets? Well.. China, Africa, emerging
asia, think Vietnam, so there must be scope for growth.

Or, they have to pull a new product category out of the hat. The watch
has been a disappointment. So maybe they are hitting some barriers.
Wearables? If I knew, I'd be rich :-)

According to nasdaq the P/E ratio is about 15, which is quite high.
https://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/aapl/pe-ratio
Scott McNealy famously said that investing in a company with a
p/e ratio greater than 10 is crazy, see here
https://thefelderreport.com/2017/10/26/what-were-you-thinking/
(the bloomberg original appears to be paywalled)
So that to me says the stock is pretty highly priced, even if
it's been dropping. But while they continue to deliver the beef,
it may well stay up there, at least for a few years.
--
Gnd -|o----|- Vcc Hey computer, what's the weather in Sydney?
trig -| 555 |- dschrg $> finger o:***@graph.no|tail -1|espeak
o/p -| |- thrsh
rst -|-----|- cntrl Steve555
Steve555
2019-06-18 17:03:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve555
Post by Martha Adams
I notice news about Apple being a world's most valuable brand. How
does that happen and how long will it last? I personally have *zero*
Apple hardware/software anywhere in my working directories, and I
can't see that any of that is particularly useful. I've been a Slacker
using twm for the past couple of decades and if Slackware continues to
fade, I think Arch or one of the BSDs are the best options for me.
*And,* generally.
But I think there's a useful lesson in here somewhere. Microsoft and
Apple. How do those closed OSs get to occupy any prominent site in
the popular mind?
Titeotwawki -- Martha Adams [Sun 2019 May 26]
I remember this story from 2016, and similar stories from the last
couple of years:- https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/23/
apple-captures-record-91-percent-of-global-smartphone-profits-research.html
...

P.S. Just in case anyone is wondering, I'm not an apple fan.
I don't own any of their kit, and I never would. I hate the deliberate
difficulty of repair, the walled-garden, the level of control.
I think apple have become the very company they were portraying HAL as
in their famous "freedom" advert. So I'm definitely not an apple fan.
Apple is the antithesis in many ways ;-)
--
Gnd -|o----|- Vcc Hey computer, what's the weather in Sydney?
trig -| 555 |- dschrg $> finger o:***@graph.no|tail -1|espeak
o/p -| |- thrsh
rst -|-----|- cntrl Steve555
Mike Spencer
2019-06-20 01:57:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve555
P.S. Just in case anyone is wondering, I'm not an apple fan.
I don't own any of their kit, and I never would. I hate the deliberate
difficulty of repair, the walled-garden, the level of control.
I think apple have become the very company they were portraying HAL as
in their famous "freedom" advert. So I'm definitely not an apple fan.
Apple is the antithesis in many ways ;-)
When the first Mac came out, I'd been playing happily with someone
else's Apple ][. Went to the brandy-new Apple Store in my market
town.

The following dialog ensued:

Me: How do you program it?

Guy: What do you want to do?

M: I want to write programs for it.

G: Yes, but what do you want to do?

M: I want to write a program in C or a similar language, compile it
and then have the computer run the program that I've written.

G: Yes, but what do you want to *do*?

Summary: Either you can't program it (unlikely) or they're just not
going to tell me that you can or how.

So I wrote off the Mac as a useless waste of silicon from day 1.

Much later, I learned that you could buy a "programmer's kit" for
several hundred (1980s) dollars. It contained some floppy disks and a
Programmer Switch.

The Programmer Switch is a 3-cent piece of twisty plastic which you
insert into an otherwise unidentifiable hole in the back of the Mac.
It goes around a corner and up inside and presses on a real switch
that's out of reach of inquiring fingers. With the Programmer Switch
in place, you can then put the Mac into mode that allows you to write
and run programs. The berk trying to sell them could have told me
that but absolutely would not. AFAICT, the attitude at Apple never
got better than that, even after moving to a new OS, decades later,
that is essentially Unix and X under the hood.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Richard Kettlewell
2019-06-20 15:22:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Spencer
Post by Steve555
P.S. Just in case anyone is wondering, I'm not an apple fan.
I don't own any of their kit, and I never would. I hate the deliberate
difficulty of repair, the walled-garden, the level of control.
I think apple have become the very company they were portraying HAL as
in their famous "freedom" advert. So I'm definitely not an apple fan.
Apple is the antithesis in many ways ;-)
When the first Mac came out, I'd been playing happily with someone
else's Apple ][. Went to the brandy-new Apple Store in my market
town.
Me: How do you program it?
Guy: What do you want to do?
M: I want to write programs for it.
G: Yes, but what do you want to do?
M: I want to write a program in C or a similar language, compile it
and then have the computer run the program that I've written.
G: Yes, but what do you want to *do*?
Summary: Either you can't program it (unlikely) or they're just not
going to tell me that you can or how.
So I wrote off the Mac as a useless waste of silicon from day 1.
Much later, I learned that you could buy a "programmer's kit" for
several hundred (1980s) dollars. It contained some floppy disks and a
Programmer Switch.
The Programmer Switch is a 3-cent piece of twisty plastic which you
insert into an otherwise unidentifiable hole in the back of the Mac.
It goes around a corner and up inside and presses on a real switch
that's out of reach of inquiring fingers. With the Programmer Switch
in place, you can then put the Mac into mode that allows you to write
and run programs.
It was a debugging aid, giving manual access to the reset and interrupt
lines, the latter intended to trigger a debugger. It wasn’t there to
control the ability to develop applications independently.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1030621/Apple-Macintosh-Se-30.html?page=98#manual
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
Mike Spencer
2019-06-20 23:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Kettlewell
The [MAC] Programmer Switch is a 3-cent piece of twisty plastic
which you insert into an otherwise unidentifiable hole in the back
of the Mac. It goes around a corner and up inside and presses on a
real switch that's out of reach of inquiring fingers. With the
Programmer Switch in place, you can then put the Mac into mode that
allows you to write and run programs.
It was a debugging aid, giving manual access to the reset and interrupt
lines, the latter intended to trigger a debugger. It wasn't there to
control the ability to develop applications independently.
Ah, well, in that case the store owner was just being a dickhead.

Tnx for the update clue.
Post by Richard Kettlewell
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1030621/Apple-Macintosh-Se-30.html?page=98#manual
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Steve555
2019-06-21 22:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Kettlewell
Post by Mike Spencer
The Programmer Switch is a 3-cent piece of twisty plastic which you
insert into an otherwise unidentifiable hole in the back of the Mac.
It goes around a corner and up inside and presses on a real switch
that's out of reach of inquiring fingers. With the Programmer Switch
in place, you can then put the Mac into mode that allows you to write
and run programs.
It was a debugging aid, giving manual access to the reset and interrupt
lines, the latter intended to trigger a debugger. It wasn’t there to
control the ability to develop applications independently.
Ah, well, my ZX Spectrum didn't have that programmer switch.
It happily reset itself at random... every time the ram-pak
plugged into the crappy edge connector jiggled by accident!
--
Gnd -|o----|- Vcc Hey computer, what's the weather in Sydney?
trig -| 555 |- dschrg $ finger o:***@graph.no|tail -1|espeak
o/p -| |- thrsh
rst -|-----|- cntrl Steve555
Bud Frede
2019-07-04 14:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martha Adams
I notice news about Apple being a world's most valuable brand. How
does that happen and how long will it last? I personally have *zero*
Apple hardware/software anywhere in my working directories, and I
can't see that any of that is particularly useful. I've been a Slacker
using twm for the past couple of decades and if Slackware continues to
fade, I think Arch or one of the BSDs are the best options for me.
*And,* generally.
But I think there's a useful lesson in here somewhere. Microsoft and
Apple. How do those closed OSs get to occupy any prominent site in
the popular mind?
I know I'm replying a bit late...

Does what you use Slackware for depend upon a lot of other people also
using it? In other words, does a distro's popularity really matter for
your usage?

I know a number of people that have been users of Slackware for years
and they just like it. I think they should keep using it until it no
longer works for them or they no longer like it for some reason.

If you do switch, you will surely find some things you like and some
things that annoy you with your new distro. The grass is never
completely greener on the other side of the fence. :-)

I personally use one of the Debian-based distros. I used Slackware
back when you used a handful (7?) of floppy disks to install it, but
first Red Hat's RPM package management led me to move to it and then
not long after that Debian's package management and way of doing things
really struck my fancy. (I started out with unix on SunOS and Solaris,
so that probably influenced how comfortable I felt with various Linux
distros.)

I used to be more willing or even thrilled to do a lot of configuration
and modification of the OS. These days I prize stability and ease of use
- in terms of not having to fiddle around with the OS too much. I prefer
to just use my computers. If a distro has default settings and a way of
doing things that I can live with, I'm ok with just going with that.

What I'm leading up to is that I've tried Arch and there are things that
I really like about it. There are some really clever people working on
it, their documentation and wiki are superb, and people in the Arch
community were very helpful when I had questions.

However, I found Arch to be a bit too close to upstream and the
"bleeding edge" of new versions of software. I had to be more careful
when applying updates, and I had to fix things more often than I like.

I've also used FreeBSD and OpenBSD. (I did use NetBSD SPARC years ago
too, but I've had more experience with FreeBSD and OpenBSD.)

I think I'd probably recommend FreeBSD at first because I think it might
be a bit easier to start out. But both it and OpenBSD are very fine OSes
and their user communities are great.

The last time I tried FreeBSD, the drivers for Nvidia graphics cards
were much better than those for AMD ones. So hardware support may be
something you want to look into before making a switch. If you have
brand new hardware, Linux may be a better bet in terms of supporting it
than the BSDs, but that might not be an issue if you choose your
hardware carefully.

Kind of like years ago with Linux. You sometimes had to pick which
hardware to buy with Linux in mind because some was better supported
than others.

Ok - Apple. Different people value different things. There seem to be
many people that do value what Apple has to offer. I guess if some
people like the, for instance, iPhone, and consider it to be a
worthwhile purchase, who are we to say they're wrong?

Apple's prices are high, and you give up some freedoms to use their
products. On the other hand, they seem to make their money from selling
products and not from selling your data. Maybe it's better to pay up
front with a higher purchase price than to get a product with a lower
purchase price that collects your data (like a Chromebook). Microsoft
makes money from selling ads (like with Bing), so I think it's likely that
users of Windows are having their data used in some way.

Google definitely makes money off of your data, so you can bet that
Android is a data collection tool.

What compromises are we willing to make? Do we use Gmail? Or do we use
some other e-mail provider (that may or may not be harvesting our data)?

If we run our own mail server, are we able to ensure that none of the
mail servers between us and the people we correspond with are harvesting
our data? About the only way to stop that is by always using encryption
like PGP/GPG, but I find that there are always people that I want to or
need to communicate with that can't or won't use encryption.

Even encrypted e-mail will still allow others to gather data about who
we're e-mailing and when, and possibly who our ISP is, where in the
world we are, etc.

So hopefully we make informed decisions. What works for me may or may
not work for you. We make our choices and then get on with our
lives. :-)

My employer chose to provide us with Macs to work with. They didn't want
to use Windows for various reasons. The apps and services we use were an
important factor in choosing an OS or platform. App support was good on
Windows, the Mac, and Chromebook. It was less good on Linux and would
have required some workarounds or even switching apps in some cases. (If
you have people who are skilled in using, for instance, some Adobe
content creation apps, it may be very difficult to switch to a platform
those apps don't support natively.)

The Chromebook was found to be too limiting for developers and some
other people that do specialized work.

As I said, they didn't want to do Windows.

So the Mac has the apps we need, there are good tools available to
manage a fleet of Macs, and the Mac is flexible enough that it can meet
everyone's needs.

I was kind of miffed at first. I wanted to continue to use a laptop with
my Linux distro of choice on it. I had figured out how to do everything
I needed to do with Linux. But we needed to start being compliant with
things like PCI, and the company was bigger and it was no longer really
possible for one person to have one brand of laptop with their favorite
distro on it while other people used other distros, and yet other people
had Macs.

So I started using a Mac every day. I found that I was able to be quite
productive on it, and there are even some things I really like about
it. I adjusted pretty quickly, and you know, it's one hell of a lot
better than at previous workplaces where I had to use Windows.

I still like Linux better, and that's what I typically use at home, but
I can be ok with the Mac too.

Do I have concerns with the "walled garden" and the proprietary software
and hardware of Apple products? Yes, I do. But I like my job more than I
dislike those things. Perhaps I could get a similar job with a company
that doesn't use Macs, but then I bet I'd have to use Windows
instead. My skills and career path won't really let me avoid all
proprietary software and hardware.
Martha Adams
2019-07-05 01:40:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martha Adams
I notice news about Apple being a world's most valuable brand. How
does that happen and how long will it last? I personally have *zero*
Apple hardware/software anywhere in my working directories, and I
can't see that any of that is particularly useful. I've been a Slacker
using twm for the past couple of decades and if Slackware continues to
fade, I think Arch or one of the BSDs are the best options for me.
*And,* generally.
But I think there's a useful lesson in here somewhere. Microsoft and
Apple. How do those closed OSs get to occupy any prominent site in
the popular mind?
====================================================
I know I'm replying a bit late...
snip....
Hi, Bud. I think your response and discussion are a *really useful*
addition to the local business, in a time when rubbish freaks have
so profoundly depressed it all across pretty much everywhere. There
*are* still thinking people here!

Anyhow. I've minimalist inclinations in my inner makeup, and Slackware
appeals to that part of me. Back when "user friendly" was first coming
in it had good press but I didn't like it. Looking for something to
meed my need I found Slackware and twm in it; and to this day I know
"user friendly" means a lot to many people but it looks to me very like
emulating Microsoft, who....

Well, there are better things to talk about. My current Linux Pro
Magazine (#223, 2019 June) came with a FreeBSD 12.0 on its dvd, and
I'm gradually coming around to buy some parts, make a new machine,
and try that FreeBSD in it. My reason for tending away from Slackware
is it seems isolated, there is no community to it.

Titeotwawki -- Martha Adams [Thr Jly 04]
Eef Hartman
2019-07-05 01:46:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martha Adams
My reason for tending away from Slackware
is it seems isolated, there is no community to it.
The community is in the Slackware forum on linuxquestions.org
Even Pat himself occasionally posts there, as do Eric "AlienBOB"
Hameleers and Robby Workman.
Bud Frede
2019-07-06 16:24:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eef Hartman
Post by Martha Adams
My reason for tending away from Slackware
is it seems isolated, there is no community to it.
The community is in the Slackware forum on linuxquestions.org
Even Pat himself occasionally posts there, as do Eric "AlienBOB"
Hameleers and Robby Workman.
Most communities on Usenet have been shrinking, so I definitely wouldn't
judge the popularity of Slackware based on traffic in this newsgroup.

Also, does Slackware do what you need it to do? Does it work? If so, and
as long as there continue to be security updates to it, does it matter
how many people use it?

If you like using Slackware, and it's obvious that you do, then don't
worry about how large a community you're part of. If Slackware puts a
smile on your face then stick with it. :-)

As I said, I only used Slackware for a short period of time back in the
early days, but I fully understand why its users love it. It does things
the way you want it to, and it has great performance.

If you're having some problems with doing something or getting something
to work, then definitely ask your friends here, or seek out the
Slackware forum as Eef mentioned.

After all, if the size of the community of users is what's most
important, we'd all be running Windows.

There certainly are some very nice people in other communities, like
FreeBSD or Arch, so I'm sure you could find a home in either place. But
is it time to do that yet?

I'm not trying to say that there's anything wrong with FreeBSD or Arch,
because they're both excellent. Maybe you can try using both and see if
either one calls to you more than Slackware does? But don't give up on
an old friend just because it doesn't seem like as many people use it
now as did in the past.

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