Discussion:
Enough already!
(too old to reply)
Martha Adams
2020-06-01 18:36:27 UTC
Permalink
'Computer science' has a disease: elaboration beyond what the work
needs. And here we go again: 80++ columns? ??

I sure hope not. 80 columns seems a good compromise for a world
whose people have varying degrees of quality eyesight. Let's leave
it that way, and move along to some real work. I think today's most
central issue is how to communicate between parties without all
sorts of snoopers able to listen in. Security! Whoever thought
that security would be such a can of worms, but there it is. So
let's pass by the 80 vs ?? columns topic and face up to what's
serious these days.

Titeotwawki -- Martha Adams [Mon 2020 Jun 01]
Aragorn
2020-06-01 20:58:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martha Adams
'Computer science' has a disease: elaboration beyond what the work
needs. And here we go again: 80++ columns? ??
I sure hope not. 80 columns seems a good compromise for a world
whose people have varying degrees of quality eyesight. Let's leave
it that way, and move along to some real work. [...]
I'm afraid you completely misunderstand the situation, Martha. All
that has happened — and that you're alluding to, but without a link
that would let other members of this newsgroup know what you're
talking about — is that Linus Torvalds has decided that code submitted
to the development of the Linux kernel must no longer abide by the "80
columns" rule, because it yields ugly code, with too many line breaks.

So now he set forth a 100-columns limit, and — again — this decision is
only pertinent to the code submitted to the Linux kernel project.

Nobody's going to be taking your 80x25-character display away from you.
--
With respect,
= Aragorn =
Henrik Carlqvist
2020-06-02 05:41:20 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 01 Jun 2020 22:58:25 +0200, Aragorn wrote:

the Linux kernel must no longer abide by the "80 columns"
Post by Aragorn
rule, because it yields ugly code, with too many line breaks.
So now he set forth a 100-columns limit, and — again — this decision is
only pertinent to the code submitted to the Linux kernel project.
But again, the new suggested 100 columns is not going to be a hard limit
according to:

https://linux.slashdot.org/story/20/05/31/211211/linus-torvalds-argues-
against-80-column-line-length-coding-style-as-linux-kernel-deprecates-it

So Linus has changed his opinion on this compared by say a year ago:

https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/line-length-limits

IMHO the 80 column hard limit is or was a good thing. Yes, I have a
bigger screen than that, but code written might not have the privelege of
occupying my screen all by itself. Maybe I want to compare 3 different
versions of my code in a tool like kdiff3. Then it is really convenient
to have room for the 3 versions side by side. Maybe I want to print out
the code on my printer, then it looks a lot better if it fits within the
printers 80 colums width on each page.

IMHO a hard limit of 100 colums would not be as good as the hard limit of
80 columns as shown in the examples above, but it would at least be
better than only a soft limit.

I have seen projects with soft limits where the developer with the widest
screen and capable of reading the smallest font "wins", everyone else
suffers from badly broken lines and all developers ask for bigger screens.

regards Henrik
John Forkosh
2020-06-02 06:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henrik Carlqvist
Post by Henrik Carlqvist
the Linux kernel must no longer abide by the "80 columns"
rule, because it yields ugly code, with too many line breaks.
So now he set forth a 100-columns limit, and ??? again ???
this decision is only pertinent to the code submitted to
the Linux kernel project.
But again, the new suggested 100 columns is not going to be
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/20/05/31/211211/
linus-torvalds-argues-against-80-column-line-length-
coding-style-as-linux-kernel-deprecates-it
So Linus has changed his opinion on this compared by say
https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/line-length-limits
IMHO the 80 column hard limit is or was a good thing.
ABSOLUTELY!!!! How the heck am I going to write code
with my keypunch anymore!!!??? (Anybody else here still
remember how to prepare a drum card for an 026 keypunch?
-- you think I should maybe take that off my resume now?)

Okay, more seriously (well, slightly more), my estimation
is that even a full 80 cols is a bit hard to scan and
understand at one fell swoop. Moreover, it suggests (to me)
you're not breaking-and-indenting your statements to
minimize the reader's mental effort required to interpret
the semantics corresponding to the written syntax.
But that's just my opinion. It's ultimately all in the eye
of the beholder. And Torvalds is apparently beholdin' it
differently.
Post by Henrik Carlqvist
Yes, I have a bigger screen than that, but code written
might not have the privelege of occupying my screen all
by itself. Maybe I want to compare 3 different versions
of my code in a tool like kdiff3. Then it is really
convenient to have room for the 3 versions side by side.
Maybe I want to print out the code on my printer, then
it looks a lot better if it fits within the printers 80
colums width on each page.
IMHO a hard limit of 100 colums would not be as good as
the hard limit of 80 columns as shown in the examples above,
but it would at least be better than only a soft limit.
I have seen projects with soft limits where the developer
with the widest screen and capable of reading the smallest
font "wins", everyone else suffers from badly broken lines
and all developers ask for bigger screens.
regards Henrik
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: ***@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )
Jimmy Johnson
2020-06-03 05:11:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henrik Carlqvist
But again, the new suggested 100 columns is not going to be a hard limit
And I thought 'line wrap' was common to everyone, guess not.

Here's another link: https://www.theregister.com/2020/06/01/linux_5_7/
Post by Henrik Carlqvist
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/20/05/31/211211/linus-torvalds-argues-
against-80-column-line-length-coding-style-as-linux-kernel-deprecates-it
https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/line-length-limits
IMHO the 80 column hard limit is or was a good thing. Yes, I have a
bigger screen than that, but code written might not have the privelege of
occupying my screen all by itself. Maybe I want to compare 3 different
versions of my code in a tool like kdiff3. Then it is really convenient
to have room for the 3 versions side by side. Maybe I want to print out
the code on my printer, then it looks a lot better if it fits within the
printers 80 colums width on each page.
IMHO a hard limit of 100 colums would not be as good as the hard limit of
80 columns as shown in the examples above, but it would at least be
better than only a soft limit.
I have seen projects with soft limits where the developer with the widest
screen and capable of reading the smallest font "wins", everyone else
suffers from badly broken lines and all developers ask for bigger screens.
--
Jimmy Johnson

Slackware64 Current - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda5
Registered Linux User #380263
tom
2020-06-06 01:42:10 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 05:41:20 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Henrik Carlqvist
the Linux kernel must no longer abide by the "80 columns"
Post by Aragorn
rule, because it yields ugly code, with too many line breaks.
So now he set forth a 100-columns limit, and — again — this
decision is only pertinent to the code submitted to the Linux
kernel project.
But again, the new suggested 100 columns is not going to be a hard
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/20/05/31/211211/linus-torvalds-argues-
against-80-column-line-length-coding-style-as-linux-kernel-deprecates-it
https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/line-length-limits
IMHO the 80 column hard limit is or was a good thing. Yes, I have a
bigger screen than that, but code written might not have the
privelege of occupying my screen all by itself. Maybe I want to
compare 3 different versions of my code in a tool like kdiff3. Then
it is really convenient to have room for the 3 versions side by side.
Maybe I want to print out the code on my printer, then it looks a lot
better if it fits within the printers 80 colums width on each page.
IMHO a hard limit of 100 colums would not be as good as the hard
limit of 80 columns as shown in the examples above, but it would at
least be better than only a soft limit.
I have seen projects with soft limits where the developer with the
widest screen and capable of reading the smallest font "wins",
everyone else suffers from badly broken lines and all developers ask
for bigger screens.
regards Henrik
As I understand it Linux's goal is not quality or code correctness. If
that's what your looking for try OpenBSD and NetBSD. This 80 columns
debate comes up every few years and the answer is that 80columns max is
actually what humans read comfortably at. Not even just code but any
paragraph of text. That's why professionally done websites even force
CSS to no more than 80 columns despite highres monitors becoming
prevalent now.
--
________________________________
/ System going down at 1:45 this \
\ afternoon for disk crashing. /
--------------------------------
\
\
/\ /\
//\\_//\\ ____
\_ _/ / /
/ * * \ /^^^]
\_\O/_/ [ ]
/ \_ [ /
\ \_ / /
[ [ / \/ _/
_[ [ \ /_/
tom
2020-06-06 01:44:21 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 18:42:10 -0700
Post by tom
On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 05:41:20 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Henrik Carlqvist
the Linux kernel must no longer abide by the "80 columns"
Post by Aragorn
rule, because it yields ugly code, with too many line breaks.
So now he set forth a 100-columns limit, and — again — this
decision is only pertinent to the code submitted to the Linux
kernel project.
But again, the new suggested 100 columns is not going to be a hard
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/20/05/31/211211/linus-torvalds-argues-
against-80-column-line-length-coding-style-as-linux-kernel-deprecates-it
https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/line-length-limits
IMHO the 80 column hard limit is or was a good thing. Yes, I have a
bigger screen than that, but code written might not have the
privelege of occupying my screen all by itself. Maybe I want to
compare 3 different versions of my code in a tool like kdiff3. Then
it is really convenient to have room for the 3 versions side by
side. Maybe I want to print out the code on my printer, then it
looks a lot better if it fits within the printers 80 colums width
on each page.
IMHO a hard limit of 100 colums would not be as good as the hard
limit of 80 columns as shown in the examples above, but it would at
least be better than only a soft limit.
I have seen projects with soft limits where the developer with the
widest screen and capable of reading the smallest font "wins",
everyone else suffers from badly broken lines and all developers ask
for bigger screens.
regards Henrik
As I understand it Linux's goal is not quality or code correctness. If
that's what your looking for try OpenBSD and NetBSD. This 80 columns
debate comes up every few years and the answer is that 80columns max
is actually what humans read comfortably at. Not even just code but
any paragraph of text. That's why professionally done websites even
force CSS to no more than 80 columns despite highres monitors becoming
prevalent now.
I think the Linux 5 releases have been moving from one drama scene to
the next. not only did we have to deal with a new corporate 'coc' but
also the sheer amount of critical bugs in linux 5 lts has made it very
difficult to use. I'm still on 4.19 due to all the constant breakage
and regressions.
--
________________________________
/ System going down at 1:45 this \
\ afternoon for disk crashing. /
--------------------------------
\
\
/\ /\
//\\_//\\ ____
\_ _/ / /
/ * * \ /^^^]
\_\O/_/ [ ]
/ \_ [ /
\ \_ / /
[ [ / \/ _/
_[ [ \ /_/
Aragorn
2020-06-06 04:54:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by tom
I think the Linux 5 releases have been moving from one drama scene to
the next. not only did we have to deal with a new corporate 'coc' but
also the sheer amount of critical bugs in linux 5 lts has made it very
difficult to use. I'm still on 4.19 due to all the constant breakage
and regressions.
I'm running 5.4 — currently 5.4.43. Like 4.19, 5.4 is also a
long-term-support kernel, and it's very stable.
--
With respect,
= Aragorn =
tom
2020-06-08 16:35:00 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 6 Jun 2020 06:54:52 +0200
Post by Aragorn
Post by tom
I think the Linux 5 releases have been moving from one drama scene
to the next. not only did we have to deal with a new corporate
'coc' but also the sheer amount of critical bugs in linux 5 lts has
made it very difficult to use. I'm still on 4.19 due to all the
constant breakage and regressions.
I'm running 5.4 — currently 5.4.43. Like 4.19, 5.4 is also a
long-term-support kernel, and it's very stable.
Whatever you do, be sure to test any nftables rules and ipt egress
filtering in a virtual machine extra thoroughly before deploying them
anywhere, because the Linux 5 kernels I've had either every single
proccess using an IPv6 file descriptor go into an uninterruptible state
until it hangs the system or the kernel to flat out panic a few hours
later after deploying egress filtering with the old ipt tools. These
flaws don't usually manifest themselves immediately.
--
_________________________________________
/ Attorney General Edwin Meese III \
| explained why the Supreme Court's |
| Miranda decision (holding that subjects |
| have a right to remain silent and have |
| a lawyer present during questioning) is |
| unnecessary: "You don't have many |
| suspects who are innocent of a crime. |
| That's contradictory. If a person is |
| innocent of a crime, then he is not a |
| suspect." |
| |
\ -- U.S. News and World Report, 10/14/85 /
-----------------------------------------
\
\
/\ /\
//\\_//\\ ____
\_ _/ / /
/ * * \ /^^^]
\_\O/_/ [ ]
/ \_ [ /
\ \_ / /
[ [ / \/ _/
_[ [ \ /_/
John McCue
2020-06-06 14:53:00 UTC
Permalink
tom <***@invalid.tld> wrote:
[snip]
Post by tom
As I understand it Linux's goal is not quality or code correctness. If
that's what your looking for try OpenBSD and NetBSD. This 80 columns
debate comes up every few years and the answer is that 80columns max is
actually what humans read comfortably at. Not even just code but any
paragraph of text. That's why professionally done websites even force
CSS to no more than 80 columns despite highres monitors becoming
prevalent now.
Yes for me, that is true. About code formatting, I do
not know why people do not learn to use indent(1).

I use it to reformat c programs for formats I do not like,
not difficult at all. Then if you make a change you can
format it back to the project's required format.

The kernel developers can always issue a .indent.pro file
for that purpose.

John
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